SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
President Trump met with Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the Vatican this morning. A photo shows the two leaders sitting face to face huddled together in seemingly deep conversation on the sidelines of Pope Francis's funeral. The White House says the two had, quote, "a very productive discussion." And on social media earlier today, President Trump criticized his Russian counterpart, writing, quote, "there was no reason for Putin to be shooting missiles into civilian areas. It makes me think that maybe he doesn't want to stop the war, he's just tapping me along." This all comes a day after U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff met with President Putin in Moscow to discuss a possible end to the war in Ukraine. Here to talk about what all of this high-level diplomacy means is Michael McFaul. He served as the former U.S. ambassador to Russia during the Obama administration and is currently the director of the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University. Welcome.
MICHAEL MCFAUL: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: Let's start with this meeting. What do you make of the meeting? What do you make of the fact that afterward, Trump posted on social media criticizing Vladimir Putin, not Volodymyr Zelenskyy?
MCFAUL: Well, I'm glad they had the meeting. Anytime they can meet, especially one on one, without cameras, without staff, that's always a good thing because then President Zelenskyy gets to explain his position directly to President Trump. The reaction from President Zelenskyy on social media was very positive, and other staff people have said positive things. And as you just noted, President Trump also did criticize Putin. He suggested that maybe he's not serious about peace and that there should be sanctions. And that's, in my view, a correct assessment of where Putin has been so far, and that would be a correct prescription to try to put pressure on Russia - something President Trump and his team have never done. But I'd also point out that President Trump sounds always tough on social media and says a lot of things rhetorically and very rarely follows up with concrete actions when we're talking about pressure on Putin, pressure on Russia.
DETROW: This is at the funeral of Pope Francis, who pushed for several years now for peace in Ukraine. In a different way, Trump and the Trump administration have been pressuring Ukraine to cut a deal to end the war. Trump said yesterday he thinks Ukraine and Russia are close. How do you read that? What do you think is happening in the coming weeks? Do you think this war could end?
MCFAUL: I'm not sure. I worry that Putin is not serious about ending this war. I think Putin thinks time's on his side. Trump and his team will eventually get frustrated and walk away. They'll cut military assistance to Ukraine. And that's all in Putin's favor for continuing the war and to try to conquer the territory on the ground that he is already annexed on paper. You buy a map in Russia today and it has four of those regions of Ukraine as part of the Russian Federation.
DETROW: Curious what your best realistic read is right now and not what you would like to see but what you think is realistic. What you think the best position Ukraine could be in in some sort of peace deal could be at this moment, given the manpower, given the dug-in front and given the fact that under President Trump, the U.S. is very clear that it's not going to continue supporting Ukraine in the way that the U.S. did for several years of this war. Like, what do you think the best-case scenario is here for Ukraine?
MCFAUL: Well, I would disconnect two different things that get conflated. There's a ceasefire, and then there's a permanent peace agreement to end the war. And I think those are two very different things. I think most immediately, getting a ceasefire, and even if it has to be a minimal one, getting a ceasefire that both sides say we are not going to attack civilian targets, that would be a great achievement for the Ukrainians. Remember, Putin constantly, every day and just a few days ago, again, in their capital of Kyiv, is attacking civilian targets. I call that terrorism. That would be great to end. And then that moment, if you got to a ceasefire, could create the permissive conditions for a longer negotiation that I think could go on for months, if not years, about some permanent peace settlement. And I'm not optimistic they would ever get it, but at least the war would stop without forcing Zelenskyy to acknowledge annexation. And I think, tragically, that's probably the best outcome that Ukraine can hope for for today with the long-term expectations that they would buy time for the Europeans to help provide the weapons that we are no longer going to. And I say that tragically. I think it's in America's national interest to continue to help deter Putin's army from going further, but obviously, President Trump, at least so far, disagrees with that.
DETROW: That's Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, now with Stanford University. Thanks again for talking to us.
MCFAUL: Thanks for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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